Interview with Nawal El-Saadawi

Nawal El-Saadawi is a well- known and outspoken personality, an international advocate for women's rights. As a physician, she was exposed to the hidden sexual and physical abuses of women in Egypt. She wrote about misogynist practices including clitoridectomy in her two famous books: Women and Sexuality and The Hidden Face of Eve, Women in Arab Countries.

In an interview with Azam Kamguian, Dr El-Saadawi talks about Islam and women in the Arab World.

Azam Kamguian: Do you see any distinction between Islam and so - called Islamic fundamentalism? Especially with regard to women's rights and women's status in the Arab World?

Nawal El-Saadawi: A very good question! There is a difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. First of all, I usually do not look at Islam alone as a religion. I have to campare Islam with Christianity and Judaism and other religions. Some people try to say that women are oppressed in Islam and in Arab countries, which is not true. Women are oppressed in Christian countries and in Christianity; Jewish women are also oppressed by religion. If you read the Old Testament and the New Testament and compare them, you find out that women are more oppressed in these religions; even that women are more oppressed in the Old Testament than in the New Testament and they are oppressed in Koran less then Bible because of historical reasons. In every human society religion exists and we have to accept the phenomena of religion because it is there. People tend to believe in its power, especially people who are weak in front of death and in front of the many problems in life such as diseases, etc. So they need to believe in a divine power, power up there. So we can understand why religions came to history. Therefore we should not judge Islam alone.

Second, Islam is not fixed; it is changing all the time. When political and social systems change, religion also changes. The interpretation of religion also changes. All holy books need new interpretations. Some people interpret religion in a progressive way and some interpret it in a reactionary way. Regarding Islamic fundamentalism, there are political groups who use religion and they abuse Islam and Christianity as well. I live in the United States and teach at university of Florida. The state of Florida is called the Bible belt, the core of the Christian fundamentalist movement in America, which is a powerful movement. Their language is exactly like that of Islamic fundamentalism. They are challenging scientific theories, such as Darwinist theory. They try to veil the minds. Maybe they do not put the veil like Islamic fundamentalists, but they put mental veil which or veil on mind, which is more serious than the traditional veil. The conception of the veil in itself has nothing to do with Islam. Because the veil is in Christianity and Judaism and the slave system before Judaism. Islamic fundamentalists are political groups and are more oppressive to women because they tend to interpret Islam in the most reactionary way. The Koran is the book that most Muslims say is our book, it is god's book and it is our inspiration. Some people are inspired by the essence of Koran, for example my father. He graduated from al- Azhar. He was religious and he understood the Koran as justice, freedom and love, which is the message of all prophets.

There is not any difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism if we go to their original core and essence, which are humanity's justice, freedom and love. But the religious fundamentalist groups are against justice; they oppress people, they oppress women. They tend to separate between men and women. If you differ with them they kill you. They put your name on the death list. We have to understand why this phenomena has spread all over the world in the last few decades. Who originated the Taliban? It was American power and the CIA. They financed and supported the fanatic Islamic groups to fight the Soviet Union and socialism and communism. Who created and encouraged the Islamic fundamentalist groups in Egypt? Anwar Sadat! Why? To fight against Nasser groups, socialists and communists. So Christian fundamentalism is also an economic and political phenomenon and we should distinguish it from people who believe in their god and their own interpretation of religion but who do not mix religion with politics. Secularism is a very good solution. The laws should be secular laws, clear-cut! I hope I have answered your question.

Azam Kamguian: In justifying women's status in Middle Eastern countries, there is an argument stating that modernity and secularism were not and are not compatible with the culture of Middle Eastern society and what has happened in the last two decades is a return to the Arab's indigenous cultural values. What is your view on "Eastern culture" and "Western culture"? Do you believe in the relativity of cultures?

Nawal El-Saadawi: I have a book called Nawal El-Saadawi reader in which I have really elaborated these issues of post- modernism, identity politics, East and West and Middle East, post- colonialism, the Third world, etc. We have to unveil these terms to really understand them. Because the colonial and the neo - colonial powers use different words and different language all the time to veil our brains so we do not understand what they are doing. Development, for instance. They say we need development, but after twenty years of development we discovered that development is disguise; is colonialism. So now instead of saying development we say colonialism. Another example is post-colonialism. In America they say post-colonial Africa or post-colonial Egypt or Arab world. We are not post-colonial because this term means that colonialism has finished. We should correct the language and say neo-colonialism. Also post-modernism is going backward. In fact it is a backlash. In fact post-modernism and religious fundamentalism are two faces of the same coin and we have to understand the connection. We should understand the connection between post-modernism and cultural politics and identity politics and economic globalization and neo-colonial powers and the IMF. It is a part of the deception of neo-colonialism that tries to give us the impression that we are living in a very progressive, secular, democratic world when in fact we are living in a very undemocratic and colonial system. They try to change these realities in language. When we go deep down to economy, to infrastructure, we see the realities.

Azam Kamguian: But when it comes to women's rights, do you see any differences between women's lives in the East and in the West?

Nawal El-Saadawi: I do not divide the world between East and West. They call us the Middle East, but middle to whom? When I come to England I say I am coming to the Middle West. When I go to America I say I am going to the Far West. We have to have the courage to change the language.

Azam Kamguian: Let's put the terms aside and talk about facts. Do you not see any difference between women's rights and women's status in different parts of the world?

Nawal El-Saadawi: The reality is that there is nothing called Eastern and Western. There are capitalist societies; there are class - patriarchal societies; there are feudal societies and social societies. We have to understand economy and its relation to politics. But to divide and say that East is backward and West is forward and progressive is very wrong. For instance they say my clothes are Western which they are not. They are of Egyptian cotton and the trousers are not western. In my village, women wear big, wide trousers and sometimes they cover their hair because of the sand like in Algeria, where men put something on their head because of sand in the desert. So clothes are not Eastern or Western and people in every country choose their clothes according to the function, climate and what the person is doing, etc. If you wear something very practical they say it is worthless. Some people tell me you are not white why are not you veiled? My answer is the veil is not my identity; the "galawenia" is not my identity. I think we should be very careful about these.

We change by unveiling the mind and uniting. Knowledge is power. When we know, we are powerful and if we do not know, we are weak. Correct knowledge is power because sometimes we have wrong knowledge. So unveiling the mind is our first aim in Arab Women Solidarity. Second, is to organize. When we are in groups we are powerful. They can kill an individual or two persons, but they cannot kill one thousand. Israel conquered us by military power and political organization, but we are segmented. Our government does not allow people's power. So if we unveil the mind and organize, we can conquer any power.